Curse

Red Locust · Aug 24, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Distortion might frustrate the hell out of warrior-heavy builds, but that doesn't have to mean it's overpowered. It's similar to AoE smiters in that you can switch to a defensive role but temporarily lessen your offensive capabilities.

Frankly, distortion has been around for years, and so have warrior-heavy builds. If you're gonna run warrior-heavy offense and you know that people run distortion (which is as direct a counter to warriors as you can get, tbh), then bring the tools to overcome it, or lose to it.

Iotan · Aug 24, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Distortion is similar to Ether Prodigy as far as slightly overpowered skills go. If you're at all specced into either attribute line, then you'd be crazy not to take it. I would rather make the other options and counters better than to nerf Distortion however. Distortion on monks is fine in it's current state, and I think it's fine on rangers too. A ranger's pool of energy is only in the lower 30s, and for him to spec 8 illusion means he'll be hurting in other places, even with expertise. I really hate Distortion on illusion spamming Mesmers, but I guess they can have that since 60 AL against elemental is fun to work against.

As it is now, Distortion is miles away from the nearest stance. I would love to see the Tactics stances get some much needed boosts (when's the last time you saw someone use Deflect Arrows, Defensive Stance, Disciplined Stance, Shield Stance, or Wary Stance even in PvE?). Glad's Defense will always be the PvE'ers top choice, so why do those other stances have to be so awful? Making these stances better would also bring up the question of whether it's worth changing your secondary to /W just for self-defense, as Tactics would really only open up stances, shouts and Heal Sig.

Wild Blow is an impractical counter for Distortion for just about every build out there as it is now, so why not change it? Maybe tie it to Strength, increase the recharge to 10 and make it so you lose 3......1 adrenaline? Or take away the auto-crit if Strength is less than 5 as well as removing the lose all adrenaline. Even making Wild Strike a lead attack or something would help a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

If Distortion were linked to Divine Favor instead of Illusion magic, this thread wouldn't exist. It's a perfectly balanced and useful skill on a monk.

Distortion tied to DF would mean that every monk on earth would run it, which would get boring fast

.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 24, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Frankly, distortion has been around for years, and so have warrior-heavy builds. If you're gonna run warrior-heavy offense and you know that people run distortion (which is as direct a counter to warriors as you can get, tbh), then bring the tools to overcome it, or lose to it.

I ask again - what alternatives do you propose for a damage-based offense? What kind of damage-based offense can you build that doesn't rely on warriors or other melee attackers?

Numa Pompilius · Aug 24, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Apparently my post got deleted, so I'll try to be a bit more diplomatic this time...

Make a mesmer, go to RA, and try surviving by using distortion. Seriously, do. Please.

For the advanced student: try surviving by Distortion AND doing something useful like, say, spamming Diversion at the same time. Why isn't this working? Discuss with the person next to you.

Shardfenix AGAIN hit the nail on the head in his post: a mesmer CAN'T keep distortion up for long because the mesmer loses energy even if no-one hits them. And no, mesmers can't offset that by stealing energy because the energy stealing line of mesmers is now highly inefficient. Anyone who think energy is cheap to mesmers has never played one.

In addition Distortion can't be kept up at all times because it's got cooldown and cast-time: You get 5 seconds distortion, then two second gap where you're vulnerable.

The only ones who can spam Distortion are rangers, due to expertise - to a ranger Distortion is free. You can tell just how uber Distortion really is compared to ranger stances by the enormous number of R/Me's.

EDIT: Oh, and monks are mesmers not because Distortion is so uber, they choose Mesmer secondary to get Inspired Hex and Mantra of Recall. Distortion just happens to be the only tanking skill mesmers got.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 24, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Apparently my post got deleted, so I'll try to be a bit more diplomatic this time...

Make a mesmer, go to RA, and try surviving by using distortion. Seriously, do. Please.

For the advanced student: try surviving by Distortion AND doing something useful like, say, spamming Diversion at the same time. Why isn't this working? Discuss with the person next to you.

I don't think a monkless gametype where you get random teams is really indicative of how the game actually works. In an actual battle you get monks on both sides who will be keeping your mesmers up, and a mesmer with Distortion is massively harder to pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Shardfenix AGAIN hit the nail on the head in his post: a mesmer CAN'T keep distortion up for long because the mesmer loses energy even if no-one hits them.

And you're using Distortion when no one is hitting you because...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Popmilius

And no, mesmers can't offset that by stealing energy because the energy stealing line of mesmers is now highly inefficient.

If by "inefficent" you mean "most efficient non-elite energy management skills in the game" and a pretty decent selection of elites, sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Popmilius

In addition Distortion can't be kept up at all times because it's got cooldown and cast-time: You get 5 seconds distortion, then two second gap where you're vulnerable.

Read the skill descriptions and understand basic game mechanics like stances and cast times before you post. It really doesn't take that long.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 24, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Wild Blow resets your adrenaline, so you'd have to have a guy in the spike dedicated to Wild Blow.

flourish+wildblow+bunch of energy attack skills. new metagame. discuss.

JiggyFly · Aug 24, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

I think a skill is overpowered when the skill itself that starts winning matches and not the players, their communication, etc..

On an individual basis I don't see a huge problem with it, because while it does negate alot of the physical damage out there you can easily switch to another target. But if like in the Ops original post teams start running 4,5, or 6 copies of it, and their entire build is countering teams simply hitting Distortion then running around, then I think Anet needs to consider tweaking it.

Personally though, I don't believe it's come to that point quite yet...

Zakarr · Aug 24, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiggyFly

On an individual basis I don't see a huge problem with it, because while it does negate alot of the physical damage...

[nitpick]

Distortion has 75% chance to evade attacks so it doesn't matter if it is elemental, physical or other as long as it is considered as an attack.

[/nitpick]

Also there is some attack skills which will boost your damage if it is evaded.

timmyw29 · Aug 24, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Wild Blow resets your adrenaline, so you'd have to have a guy in the spike dedicated to Wild Blow. It's okay if you're trying to pressure a target who's temporarily out of monk range (ie: a ranger who overextended to kill your flagger), since autoattacks add up fairly quickly.

Sorry, just clarifying that I was meaning (in simpler terms) that there's a lot of overhead to running Wild Blow as a counter to stance-based defenses as far as melee spikes are concerned. That probably got lost in my babbling.

Symbol · Aug 24, 2006, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

I ask again - what alternatives do you propose for a damage-based offense? What kind of damage-based offense can you build that doesn't rely on warriors or other melee attackers?

So instead of being reactionary and nerfing distortion, why not ask yourself why warrior (more generally physical) heavy offense is the only option, and what can be done to change that.

The more the metagame moves away from physical pressure, the less attractive distortion becomes.

Patrograd · Aug 24, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

So instead of being reactionary and nerfing distortion, why not ask yourself why warrior (more generally physical) heavy offense is the only option, and what can be done to change that.

The more the metagame moves away from physical pressure, the less attractive distortion becomes.

I have to once again ask why, if distortion is so strong, are many of the top teams running thumpers, and winning. Thumperway remains the best farming model out there imo, despite all these distortion spammers

It seems clear to me from this that thumpers>distortion.

Yes, distortion>adrenal spikes, but so does shelter. You can still run adrenal spikes though in my experience. A team running either a ritualist or so many copies of distortion is going to be gimped damage wise, they are VoD builds essentially. Play accordingly

Running a farm build and come across a VOD build? Poor you.

timmyw29 · Aug 24, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I have to once again ask why, if distortion is so strong, are many of the top teams running thumpers, and winning.

Approximately 3 copies (or more?) of a two energy cost Irresistable Blow hold the answer to that question, and approximately 3 pets (or more?) available to attack a given target and beat their energy into oblivion...

Or did I completely get the wrong idea here? It's late and I'm not sure what I'm doing.

rii · Aug 24, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

If I remember correctly, Thumpway farming build is not just thumpers. It is also three smiters, with holy/fire damage which goes right through distortion. It also consists of either a Tainted Flesh Necromancer or a Water E/Mo runner, both of which provide damage which, again, goes through distortion. Snare also massively increases the amount of damage and strike rate v distortion that a thumper produces.

On top of that, thumpers have twice as much physical even as some 'heavy physical' balanced teams run, since they all have pets. If you fancy activating distortion with a ranger/pet train on you (3x normal attack rate, 3x IAS attack rate), prepare to have your energy nuked to living hell.

JR · Aug 24, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

If I remember correctly, Thumpway farming build is not just thumpers. It is also three smiters, with holy/fire damage which goes right through distortion. It also consists of either a Tainted Flesh Necromancer or a Water E/Mo runner, both of which provide damage which, again, goes through distortion. Snare also massively increases the amount of damage and strike rate v distortion that a thumper produces.

The most popular and effective one was far more simple;

Two Backbreaker Thumpers, two Charge Thumpers, Death Necro, two Monks and a Water Runner.

Patrograd · Aug 24, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmyw29

Approximately 3 copies (or more?) of a two energy cost Irresistable Blow hold the answer to that question, and approximately 3 pets (or more?) available to attack a given target and beat their energy into oblivion...

Or did I completely get the wrong idea here? It's late and I'm not sure what I'm doing.

No you're right imo. KD chains and sheer melee pressure just ovewhelm distortion and in fact everything else. i think these thumper teams are also running necros with melee minions to add to the mix.

Fix thumpers and you can talk about fixing distortion, until then I think its one of the few skills around that actually give you a slight chance against this kind of overwhelming force.

Drewfense · Aug 24, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

If you use distortion versus a thumper team, you are likely to lose. Against a half decent team, you should have one (if not two) thumpers and pets on each monk. That means with each distortion, you will likely lose about 20 energy. Even if done to avoid deep wound, it is much better to just take the damage and save your energy for healing/prot spells. The best option is actually to use a shield (I am fond of -5 20% 10 blunt).

As for thumpers being overpowered...I think that is a large misconception. From a monks perspective (playing balanced against thumpway and puging for thump teams), the thumpway build (often as JR described) is pure offense. The only warrior hate is perhaps an Aegis on the death necro. It might feel as though your balanced team is falling apart from all the pressure...but the thumpers are always in the same boat. Just use your warrior hate effectively and once you get one monk down, the thumpway is pretty much over. In addition to not having significant warrior hate, thumpway teams are often pugs with minimal hex removal, minimal condition removal, and horrible monk builds (you often see the cookie cutter boon prots or blight, bad choices for thumpway). The most defensive way to beat thumpway using balanced is...

1. Thumpers are not warriors. People often want to go for the monks or the necro...which is fine if your own backline can handle the thumpers, but really the thumpers are soft targets. They only have 70 (maybe 80 if they are using stance armor, but most use druids...), they have no defensive stances, and there is minimal warrior hate. Your warriors will restrict their offense and you can fairly quickly dp out the thumpers.

2. Don't attack the pets. The death necro is completely built on momentum and pets just feed him. He gets a death nova/putrid explosion and it gives him free soul reaping. Keep in mind that the death necro is very energy expensive. In GvG it is hard to do much more than taint without a /me secondary. Adding that he likely is their only draw/aegis/convert...the necro really cannot function without soul reaping.

3. If necessary split...the thumper builds split pretty badly and as I said before, most are pug guilds who will behave chaotically.

And the final reason it isn't unbalanced! There are very few high ranked thumper guilds that playing during prime time! This sounds sarcastic, but GvG at 2 eastern, then GvG at 9 eastern. There is a slight difference (/sarcasm). If you want an unbalanced build, look at ranger spike teams such as Deer and Simba's Last Pride who play at prime time and have 50-5ish records.

zoozoc · Aug 24, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

distortion is an anti-spike skill: its most annoying when playing a balanced build, you cant keep distortion up against heavy melee pressure, you will lose all your energy very fast.

Divineshadows · Aug 24, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

I will ask this before Squidget asks it again - what alternatives to melee are there for damage? I don't understand why people say that the metagame now is about melee damage. It's not the metagame, it's Guild Wars that is about melee damage. It's like saying that using Monks for healing/protting is the metagame.

Guild Wars has gone through periods of time where ~1.8 melee per team was the average (virtually every team had two warriors, but a few teams had 3 warriors or were running spike with no warriors). Right now, I would guess that the average melee per team is ~2.5 (if pets are counted that number jumps to something more like ~4.4). These numbers are guesses on my part, but they are what I honestly feel from having played over 100 ladder matches last season.

The metagame used to be more about making your melee damage more unavoidable by using mesmer effects to remove prots and mess over monk's energy or skillbars. Right now, the metagame seems to be all about just adding more melee to power through ritualist based spirits.

Of course the damage in the metagame is all about melee damage, but doesn't the relative amount of melee damage you can expect to face have some determination on how you build to counter? For guilds that choose not to overload on melee damage but still want to run an adrenal spike, they have to have some plan to deal with distortion users otherwise you end up with enemy mesmers and rangers coming up to molest your monks and nothing you can do to punish them for their overextension which is a losing proposition.

kvndoom · Aug 24, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Wild Blow and Distortion have the same recharge. Maybe buff Wild Blow ever slightly, so that it disables any stance that it ends for an extra 5 seconds? In the long run that won't affect most stances much since they have AWFUL recharge times anyway (45-60 seconds... 5 more won't hurt.

), but then it could be a viable counter to Distortion. WB would be too powerful without the adrenaline loss and would become an elite, so I'd keep that much.

Buff Guided Weapon and/or Warrior's Cunning just enough to upgrade them from "totally useless" to "possibly useful." I know Guided will never, ever get buffed since it hits even through blindness, but Cunning could use a slightly shorter recharge. Then a warrior could hit it, unload his spike before the duration ends. Evasion is a bigger part of the TA metagame than GVG, really, from what I've seen. In Arenas, nearly everyone brings some kind of evasive stance. In GVG your bar is already stretched to the limit, and not as many can afford to bring a stance.

Distortion isn't really overpowered, just annoying. But if you just keep pressuring the Mesmer he is going to run out of energy completely if he keeps spamming it. I like it as a stance that's always there when you need it. It's up to you and your team to make sure you don't need it too frequently. And its penalty makes it a fair skill.

Red Locust · Aug 25, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I ask again - what alternatives do you propose for a damage-based offense? What kind of damage-based offense can you build that doesn't rely on warriors or other melee attackers?

You don't even need to change builds entirely, just put in your own dom mesmer with blackout and diversion, should allow for some mesmer kills if played right.